We need to do some research and find out how the salary demands will increase.

1) What is the current setting on the salary increase?

2) What is the length of the TV contract? Is it adjustable or a fixed year?

3) We need to figure out how the salary demands are worked in the system? Is is a gradual increase or is it based on the market? Has anyone seen anything on other forums or leagues related to this?

4) If the salary demand increase to too high for a cap freeze, maybe the option is to impliment a minimal cap size increase to effectively correct this based on the salary demands.

I think if we can answer these questions we should have our answer for next year on whether the freeze will work or if we need to use the renegotiation rule.

[quoteac10789="TurfToe"]
Can we add reverting back to our last season of FOF 2004 as an option in the vote? It seemed to work so much better, even though it might not have been cuz I really don't remember anymore. [/quoteac10789]

I deleted my 2k4 install, and wish I could find the install exe. I would like to play it again, and see if I just remember it more fondly then I would if I had played it recently.

The cap freeze may well be a viable solution, but I'd need to see a lot of testing. I'd never consider walking blindly down that path. Like TLK said, damage done there could be irreversible. I think it'd be very foolish to pick apart the reneg rule while supporting something that could have much more profound consequences. Especially since we don't even really understand how it'd work.

Somehow I get the impression that we won't get to the cap freeze testing very quickly considering the glacial pace of this discussion. The cap issue was identified in January.

Personally, I think the renegotiation rule is simple and closes a lot of the loop-holes. It may leave leave an opening here and there, but the fundamental problem would be addressed. That's enough to satisfy me. I'm ready to move on.

[quoteebde32f="timmynausea"]

Somehow I get the impression that we won't get to the cap freeze testing very quickly considering the glacial pace of this discussion. The cap issue was identified in January.

[/quoteebde32f]

I'm not exactly sure what the best way to test it would be. Any ideas?

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The Cleveland Flats Ring of Honor:
FB Mark Reed, WR Tony Oaks, OG Richard Johnson, DT Herb Handy, OLB Alfonso Levine, SS Elijah Roy

[quote9f6e735="TLK"]
I'm not exactly sure what the best way to test it would be. Any ideas?[/quote9f6e735]

I'm not really sure, either. It seems pretty complicated. I guess just setting the cap to 0/0 or 0/1 and seeing how things progress after a few years of frozen cap once the TV contract starts. Are there a bunch of teams over the cap with only 30 guys under contract or etc?

I definitely wouldn't know how to identify a problem with contracts inflating too fast for a dead cap unless it resulted in a total disaster.

I guess you could use the same league in two runs, one with the cap set normally, one with it frozen- both over a 5 year period or so. In each you could analyze the contract demands of the top 20 players or top players at a certain position and see how much it changes.

I started to mess around with a test using our league. I have family heading over so I'll have to continue it later tonight or tomorrow... but here is what I have learned.

[b78d4777]1.[/b78d4777] The current television contract doesn't end until [u78d4777]after[/u78d4777] the 2019 season. Good news/bad news situation there.

Good news- This gives teams two more years to prepare before any changes take effect. ie. Cap freeze

Bad news- This will add approximately $15 million to our current cap.

[b78d4777]2.[/b78d4777] The television contract varied the few times I tested it between 6, 7 and 8 years. The cap would freeze at $174,600,000 in 2020. The minimum contract stayed at $490,000. That might not be a good sign.

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The Cleveland Flats Ring of Honor:
FB Mark Reed, WR Tony Oaks, OG Richard Johnson, DT Herb Handy, OLB Alfonso Levine, SS Elijah Roy

Anyone know what the current cap increase setting is from year to year?

All I know is that we have time to test this. IMO the renegotiation rule has too many negative effects to be a final resolution. While it may address part of the issue, it has the potential to create other ones as well. Granted the cap freeze may as well, but that's why we need to test this out. We do have time here to get the answers we need. Worse case scenario is nothing changes for next season.

[quote9d4dce9="timmynausea"]Somehow I get the impression that we won't get to the cap freeze testing very quickly considering the glacial pace of this discussion. The cap issue was identified in January.
[/quote9d4dce9]

Well, at least we have identified the urgency the CFL has with getting a fix in place. Since we have the opportunity to put the cart and the horse in the right order, I suggest we delve into this particular fact a little further. We have already asked how significant this problem is perceived by the league and it seemed to be a significant concern but actions say otherwise. This place can be quite confusing at times.

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ROF Division Champions: 2039 - 2043, 2045, 2047, 2054, 2056 - 2060, 2063, 2066-2067, 2070-2072
WFC Conference Champions: 2018, 2041, 2042, 2057-2058, 2060, 2062-2063
CFL Champions: 2018, 2041, 2057-2058, 2060, 2062

[quotefd20fbc="TurfToe"]This place can be quite confusing at times. [/quotefd20fbc]

Quoted For Truth.

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too many Indians, not enough Chiefs.

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Paralysis by analysis.

Let's just get something done already.

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Listen to Cheese, he is a wise man, AND FOF CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[quote4bacd46="baildog"]Listen to Cheese, he is a wise man, AND FOF CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote4bacd46]
That would be 2x champion. But these damn Outlaws are infuriating.

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If I get some time I will try to run a few tests...or if someone else has some time they can try this.

What I'm thinking is-
1) open a new game of FOF, set the cap to max increase, sim 15 seasons.
2)See how the cap stands for all the teams (If they are all close to the cap, then we have a good chance salaries tied to increase, i don't think this is the case)
3) If plenty of room under the cap, freeze the cap, sim in 5 year intervals and see how all the teams are faring with cap situation, once all teams are close to the cap- examine the FA market. Rinse & Repeat.
Also make note of minimum contracts during this time.

Im starting to agree with others here, lets just get something done- even if its not the greatest, lets just do it.

My vote has been and will be the final year rule (for right now)... with the possiblity of a cap freeze / raising the final year rule once the cap freeze has an effect.

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Home of Marvin "Muddy Waters" Raffo

Also, new poll up- please go vote again. Down to 4 options, this should really tell us which one we are going to put to a final vote.

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Home of Marvin "Muddy Waters" Raffo

I have not gotten a chance to do any type of testing- my laptop at home is broken (a complete lemon really...)

These are the results from the latest poll so far:

[quotefc11e47]
What should we do about the current cap problem?
Final Year Renegotiation Rule
35% [ 7 ]
Cap Freeze
40% [ 8 ]
Final Year Renegotiation Rule + Cap Freeze
20% [ 4 ]
Do Nothing
5% [ 1 ]

Total Votes : 20
[/quotefc11e47]

11 are in favor of a final year renegotiaion rule of some type.
12 are in favor of a cap freeze of some type.

Thats enough to say a change is needed...with only 1 vote coming in as saying Do Nothing.

We really need to figure out some numbers for the cap freeze, then we can have some discussion on it, put it to a vote and see where we go from there.


Personally, I'd love to have a final year negotion rule in effect until the cap freeze can be put in place, and then still have it in effect for the first year or so while the cap freeze works its magic. Once the demands are catching up with the cap, we can pull the rule- then run some more tests to determine what would be the best #s to set the cap increase at for future TV contracts.

All of this is assuming that the cap freeze will actually freeze the cap while players demands continue to go up.

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Home of Marvin "Muddy Waters" Raffo

After doing a bunch of longterm testing that didn't amount to much because of the unfortunate way the AI handles rosters... I ran a really simple test, that netted interesting results.

-Single player with the career simmed to the next television contract with our normal contact settings. Here is Albert Haynesworth's demands:

[imgd832d53]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.gif[/imgd832d53]

-Same sim with a 0/0 cap freeze in effect.

[imgd832d53]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.gif[/imgd832d53]

Although the differences are slight, players asking for less money is not what we need. So how about longterm?

-Using the same game, we have 8 QB's that are getting paid more than $8 million in 2008.

[imgd832d53]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... qb2008.gif[/imgd832d53]

-Using the same career and the cap freeze, I simmed six seasons and here are the QB's making over $8 million:

[imgd832d53]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... qb2013.gif[/imgd832d53]

So it appears that this cap freeze [id832d53]might[/id832d53] work over a period of a few years. Any thoughts?

_________________
The Cleveland Flats Ring of Honor:
FB Mark Reed, WR Tony Oaks, OG Richard Johnson, DT Herb Handy, OLB Alfonso Levine, SS Elijah Roy

TLK, Thanks for running the sims. I think the "X" factor that is not caculated here is the fact that we already have some big contracts out there based on the current TV contract. Once the freeze is in place and those longer term contracts start hitting the salary cap in later years, the open cap space should be used up to an extent.

Is there any way to take our multi-player game and sim ahead for testing purposes to see how this will factor into play? Obviously the AI would do the work, but it would be interesting to see the results.

[quote1c31027="Shooter"]
Is there any way to take our multi-player game and sim ahead for testing purposes to see how this will factor into play? Obviously the AI would do the work, but it would be interesting to see the results.[/quote1c31027]

This was my original test, but it didn't really result in much. Most teams would have $40 million in cap room but only 20-25 players on their roster heading into late free agency. Poor AI roster management.

_________________
The Cleveland Flats Ring of Honor:
FB Mark Reed, WR Tony Oaks, OG Richard Johnson, DT Herb Handy, OLB Alfonso Levine, SS Elijah Roy

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The Cleveland Flats Ring of Honor:
FB Mark Reed, WR Tony Oaks, OG Richard Johnson, DT Herb Handy, OLB Alfonso Levine, SS Elijah Roy

Interesting discussion. I think that sounds pretty good. Curious what others think.

I'm not a big fan of outside the game rules and believe setting the TV contract to at least 50% of what we currently get will certainly make an effect on what teams will have in 4-5 yrs. Given the massive amount of cap space available in general around the league, I'd say a 75% reduction of the TV contract monies would be more in order. A total freeze is too much at this point.

This eliminates the finger pointing of so-and-so violating some last year reneg rule and the time consumption of someone policing it. All the TV contract solution takes is the commish to change 1 variable in the game.

This won't fix things right away and will take several seasons to get corrected. This way there is no radical change that needs to be addressed right away by teams. They will know it's coming and those teams with 40M+ cap overages will see that amount come down more and more.

I had been on the fence on this last year negotiation rule but the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

If there is going to be another poll (which I'm sure there will be), there should be 2 options: final yr reneg or cap adjustment. The hybrid option just confuses people.

[quoted62ce46="Cheesehead Craig"]I'm not a big fan of outside the game rules and believe setting the TV contract to at least 50% of what we currently get will certainly make an effect on what teams will have in 4-5 yrs. Given the massive amount of cap space available in general around the league, I'd say a 75% reduction of the TV contract monies would be more in order. A total freeze is too much at this point.[/quoted62ce46]

I would easily vote for this rule to go into effect. I think there is minimal risk and we could be a little aggressive and cut the cap increase to 50% of what it is now or even 30%-40%.

Does anyone know how much the cap went up this last offseason? What was the dollar amount?