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Salary Cap Question
http://www.thecfl.us/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4515		 Page 9 of 9
Author:  TLK [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:06 am ]
Post subject: 
[quote4ca98b3="Masked"][quote4ca98b3="Fonzie"][quote4ca98b3="timmynausea"]Just so I can be on the record on this: I still think the cap adjustment fix is a huge plunge into the unknown. We just don't know enough about how the game really handles the financial stuff for this solution to make sense to me. It could fix the problem, it could make things worse, it could not do anything.

With the renegotiation rule we know what we are getting - limitations on renegotiations that will severely limit "loop-hole" contracts that are the real root of the problem. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Or in this case, let's not reinvent the wheel to solve a problem that's already been solved.

That's just my opinion.[/quote4ca98b3]

+1

Renegotiation limits are the way to go.[/quote4ca98b3]

I also agree - let's put renegotiation limits to a vote now, so it can be in place for this coming offseason. Maybe delay the final CFL bowl sim a few days, so we can see if this passes and everyone gets one more chance at an unrestricted renegotiation. Fixing this problem is worth a short delay.

Otherwise, we're just going to delay implementing a fix for yet another season. FA and the offseason will continue to be dull. Owners will continue to lose interest.[/quote4ca98b3]

[i4ca98b3]If[/i4ca98b3] we go with renegotiation rule, we'll still need to give everyone a season to get their cap situation in order. Ideally, we have this ironed out before free agency this year and then put the rule in effect for next year.
Author:  TLK [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:19 am ]
Post subject: 
[quotec8a872a="Fastcat"]
I know with AI running things it will not be the same, but can you sim ahead to the end of current contract and record Unused cap for each team, and Franchise, top 5, and top 20 averages. Make change to 3 million increase per year and sim through the next contract and record the same info (Unused cap, and franchise, top 5 and top 20) This may or may not give us enough information. Thanks[/quotec8a872a]


[quotec8a872a="Shooter"]
I think this would be a great start, but I would also throw in a small sampling of players. Maybe select 10 random players from different teams and different skill levels that would be under 7 years of experience to avoid retirements. Record their the effects of those players each year or just after the 4 year sim. Compare the current cap situation and the results of a cap freeze or with a static cap increase of a minimal amount.[/quotec8a872a]

I can do this, but it won't be until tomorrow. It takes about 20 minutes to sim a season in commish mode and I just won't have the time to do it today.
Author:  TLK [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Poll #3-

Click Here To Vote
Author:  TurfToe [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:54 am ]
Post subject: 
[quotec13e62c="Masked"][quotec13e62c="Fonzie"][quotec13e62c="timmynausea"]Just so I can be on the record on this: I still think the cap adjustment fix is a huge plunge into the unknown. We just don't know enough about how the game really handles the financial stuff for this solution to make sense to me. It could fix the problem, it could make things worse, it could not do anything.

With the renegotiation rule we know what we are getting - limitations on renegotiations that will severely limit "loop-hole" contracts that are the real root of the problem. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Or in this case, let's not reinvent the wheel to solve a problem that's already been solved.

That's just my opinion.[/quotec13e62c]

+1

Renegotiation limits are the way to go.[/quotec13e62c]

I also agree - let's put renegotiation limits to a vote now, so it can be in place for this coming offseason. Maybe delay the final CFL bowl sim a few days, so we can see if this passes and everyone gets one more chance at an unrestricted renegotiation. Fixing this problem is worth a short delay.

Otherwise, we're just going to delay implementing a fix for yet another season. FA and the offseason will continue to be dull. Owners will continue to lose interest.[/quotec13e62c]

I think the cap freeze got as many, if not more votes last time, so let's put the cap freeze to a vote now, so it can be in place for when it can be done. :wink:
Author:  TLK [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Thoughts from VPI on the cap freeze....

-Any thoughts on a 0/0 or extremely small cap increase?

Can't go extremely small...mainly due to the fact that the TV contract is for multiple years. If you get an increase of $0 for 5 years, I could foresee that right about year 3, you'll see how big of a mistake it was. You have to go gradually into it and hope for the best.
Author:  Doug5984 [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:43 am ]
Post subject: 
[quoteef4b616="TLK"]Thoughts from VPI on the cap freeze....

-Any thoughts on a 0/0 or extremely small cap increase?

Can't go extremely small...mainly due to the fact that the TV contract is for multiple years. If you get an increase of $0 for 5 years, I could foresee that right about year 3, you'll see how big of a mistake it was. You have to go gradually into it and hope for the best.[/quoteef4b616]

I have been out of the loop a little, still don't have power at my house :(
but that was my biggest concern.

I voted in the newest poll, I think we should immediately implement the renegotiation rule.

Eventually I think a cap freeze would be great, but not a true freeze- more of a slow decline in the increase until it gets us closer to where we want to go.
Author:  Fastcat [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quoteaff8109="TLK"]Thoughts from VPI on the cap freeze....

-Any thoughts on a 0/0 or extremely small cap increase?

Can't go extremely small...mainly due to the fact that the TV contract is for multiple years. If you get an increase of $0 for 5 years, I could foresee that right about year 3, you'll see how big of a mistake it was. You have to go gradually into it and hope for the best.[/quoteaff8109]

What kind of mistake? Also he mentions extremely small, I agree but what do we have now? $8 million for 5 years= $40 million if we go $3 million for 5 years= $15 million that is small in the scheme of things and everyone would know where they stood, people could spreadsheet the hell out of it and know where they stand. I would like to see the results of the sim when you get it done TLK. I dont see the renegotiation rule doing anything if the TV contract goes like it does, christ you got some teams with $50 million to spend now how is waiting until the last year to renegotiate going to make them make decisions?
Author:  JJ Smitty [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quote7587bc3="Fastcat"][quote7587bc3="TLK"]Thoughts from VPI on the cap freeze....

-Any thoughts on a 0/0 or extremely small cap increase?

Can't go extremely small...mainly due to the fact that the TV contract is for multiple years. If you get an increase of $0 for 5 years, I could foresee that right about year 3, you'll see how big of a mistake it was. You have to go gradually into it and hope for the best.[/quote7587bc3]

What kind of mistake? Also he mentions extremely small, I agree but what do we have now? $8 million for 5 years= $40 million if we go $3 million for 5 years= $15 million that is small in the scheme of things and everyone would know where they stood, people could spreadsheet the hell out of it and know where they stand. I would like to see the results of the sim when you get it done TLK. I dont see the renegotiation rule doing anything if the TV contract goes like it does, christ you got some teams with $50 million to spend now how is waiting until the last year to renegotiate going to make them make decisions?[/quote7587bc3]

I love the idea of a small increase..
Author:  Shooter [ Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quotee5c9456="JJ Smitty"][quotee5c9456="Fastcat"][quotee5c9456="TLK"]Thoughts from VPI on the cap freeze....

-Any thoughts on a 0/0 or extremely small cap increase?

Can't go extremely small...mainly due to the fact that the TV contract is for multiple years. If you get an increase of $0 for 5 years, I could foresee that right about year 3, you'll see how big of a mistake it was. You have to go gradually into it and hope for the best.[/quotee5c9456]

What kind of mistake? Also he mentions extremely small, I agree but what do we have now? $8 million for 5 years= $40 million if we go $3 million for 5 years= $15 million that is small in the scheme of things and everyone would know where they stood, people could spreadsheet the hell out of it and know where they stand. I would like to see the results of the sim when you get it done TLK. I dont see the renegotiation rule doing anything if the TV contract goes like it does, christ you got some teams with $50 million to spend now how is waiting until the last year to renegotiate going to make them make decisions?[/quotee5c9456]

I love the idea of a small increase..[/quotee5c9456]

As do I. I think we REALLY need to see these results as we may be bypassing the best option to fix this problem long term.
Author:  TLK [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:45 am ]
Post subject: 
[quoteaa365d6="Fastcat"]
I know with AI running things it will not be the same, but can you sim ahead to the end of current contract and record Unused cap for each team, and Franchise, top 5, and top 20 averages. Make change to 3 million increase per year and sim through the next contract and record the same info (Unused cap, and franchise, top 5 and top 20) This may or may not give us enough information. Thanks[/quoteaa365d6]

Here we go...

[imgaa365d6]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... il2020.jpg[/imgaa365d6]

[size=18aa365d6]2019 End of Season (Before new contract)[/sizeaa365d6]

[imgaa365d6]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgaa365d6]

[size=18aa365d6]2024 End of Season[/sizeaa365d6] After $2 million increase per season.

[imgaa365d6]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgaa365d6]

[size=18aa365d6]2019 End of Season (Before new contract)[/sizeaa365d6]

[imgaa365d6]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... eeze-1.jpg[/imgaa365d6]

[size=18aa365d6]2024 End of Season[/sizeaa365d6] After $2 million increase per season.

[imgaa365d6]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgaa365d6]
Author:  TLK [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:49 am ]
Post subject: 
[size=18b5fb838]Random Players:[/sizeb5fb838] For the record, I tracked six players, with two of them abruptly retiring after the 2020 season.

Dean Bazzell: Maintained upper 50 ratings through the seven years. Had a monster season before signing new contract.

[imgb5fb838]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgb5fb838]

[imgb5fb838]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgb5fb838]
Author:  TLK [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Lawrence Koontz: Mid-level player who maintained his ratings over the sim. He didn't have a great season in his contract year.

[img94ab770]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/img94ab770]

[img94ab770]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/img94ab770]

I apologize for the crappy quality. Photobucket isn't great with bright colors.
Author:  TLK [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Greg Cooper: 1st overall pick in the 2018 draft. Absolute monster.

[imgd9c7aea]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgd9c7aea]

[imgd9c7aea]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgd9c7aea]
Author:  Doug5984 [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:37 am ]
Post subject: 
[quotec10974b="TLK"][quotec10974b="Fastcat"]
I know with AI running things it will not be the same, but can you sim ahead to the end of current contract and record Unused cap for each team, and Franchise, top 5, and top 20 averages. Make change to 3 million increase per year and sim through the next contract and record the same info (Unused cap, and franchise, top 5 and top 20) This may or may not give us enough information. Thanks[/quotec10974b]

Here we go...

[imgc10974b]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... il2020.jpg[/imgc10974b]

[size=18c10974b]2019 End of Season (Before new contract)[/sizec10974b]

[imgc10974b]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgc10974b]

[size=18c10974b]2024 End of Season[/sizec10974b] After $2 million increase per season.

[imgc10974b]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgc10974b]

[size=18c10974b]2019 End of Season (Before new contract)[/sizec10974b]

[imgc10974b]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... eeze-1.jpg[/imgc10974b]

[size=18c10974b]2024 End of Season[/sizec10974b] After $2 million increase per season.

[imgc10974b]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/ ... freeze.jpg[/imgc10974b][/quotec10974b]

I like what these results show... My only suggestion would be instead of 2 million, make it 2.5, give a little extra wiggle room incase it is a longer TV contract. Then once we have that in place and it comes time for the next one either jim will have fixed the issue, released a new game, or we can do more tests to figure out the best amount to incease the # by each year.
Author:  Cheesehead Craig [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:50 am ]
Post subject: 
[quote33fc7a7="Doug5984"] I like what these results show... My only suggestion would be instead of 2 million, make it 2.5, give a little extra wiggle room incase it is a longer TV contract. Then once we have that in place and it comes time for the next one either jim will have fixed the issue, released a new game, or we can do more tests to figure out the best amount to incease the # by each year.[/quote33fc7a7]
I agree. The cap becomes very meaningful after 5 years and the problem seems to be solved.
Author:  TurfToe [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow, it looks as though the cap space problem is fixed over the span of 5 years. I'm curious to what the yearly progress looks like.

It actually looks like the game will be more challenging than what many were hoping for considerng those numbers. The variable will be human ownership but I think human owners will have less space due to free agent bidding and more efficient use of cap space.
Author:  Stretch [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quote970a786="TurfToe"]Wow, it looks as though the cap space problem is fixed over the span of 5 years. I'm curious to what the yearly progress looks like.

It actually looks like the game will be more challenging than what many were hoping for considerng those numbers. The variable will be human ownership but I think human owners will have less space due to free agent bidding and more efficient use of cap space.[/quote970a786]

I agree. It looks like the lower cap space fixes the problem in pretty short order.
Author:  Shooter [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
[ba3a1816]Great job TLK! [/ba3a1816] I think this clears up quite a bit and shows what could be. It even adds another ownership aspect from the league as we will now have to agree on what the TV contract will be avery 5 seasons. Also this is with the AI running the teams without the outrageous contracts being thrown around.

I would be curious to see the comments of some of the others that use the renegotiation rule in other leagues and get their feedback.
Author:  Doug5984 [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quotebf233fa="Shooter"][bbf233fa]Great job TLK! [/bbf233fa] I think this clears up quite a bit and shows what could be. It even adds another ownership aspect from the league as we will now have to agree on what the TV contract will be avery 5 seasons. Also this is with the AI running the teams without the outrageous contracts being thrown around.

I would be curious to see the comments of some of the others that use the renegotiation rule in other leagues and get their feedback.[/quotebf233fa]

I was all in favor of the renegotiation rule, with slowly phasing that out as the "cap freeze" took effect, that'd still be my main vote- but if I had to pick one or the other, I'm switching sides to the "cap freeze"
Author:  Fastcat [ Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that is what we all wanted to see! I even think the $2 million might be the ticket, as it will definitely make some talent available in the FA and teams will be required make some tough decisions, I know I will have to change the way I deal with my out of control salary cap, and I think you will see less trades (because of the impact of 1-2 round $$$$) and see the draft go faster ( I know I am dreaming) We have this season and next season to get our houses in order, so I would suggest we not put any restrictions on the teams so we can all plan out the cap this year ($166,800,000) and next year 2019 ($174,600,000)and 2020 ($176,600,000) the spreadsheet guys would really like this as actually they can plan out to 2024 ($184,600,000)
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