[quoteb1252b8="Doug5984"][quoteb1252b8="Fonzie"][quoteb1252b8="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quoteb1252b8]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quoteb1252b8]

I don't think you should be penalized- but at the same time you could basically have him the rest of his career with no risk for pretty cheap... I don't think we'd come up with something fair from all sides. And from my stand point I'd like to see him at least get a new offer with the tag, but that is essentially up to you.

I'm assuming you're talking about the [player]Butch Fulton[/player] deal- he did resign for a fair amount after the franchise tag so it became a moot point...
[codeb1252b8]
2010 Texas Signed as an unrestricted free agent from Tulsa, $6 mil., 1 yr.
2010 Long Beach Turned down a contract offer, $25 mil., 5 yrs.
2010 Tulsa Turned down a contract offer, $34 mil., 5 yrs.
2010 San Antonio Turned down a contract offer, $43.62 mil., 5 yrs.
2011 Texas Designated franchise player
2011 Texas Signed a renegotiated contract, $17.09 mil., 5 yrs.[/codeb1252b8]

I guess it is up to you if you franchise and resign or continually franchise him- i don't know how the new hold out logic works with doing this.[/quoteb1252b8]

I fully intend to franchise and re-sign him to an extension next year.

_________________

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[quote0fb18bf="Fonzie"][quote0fb18bf="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quote0fb18bf]

[b0fb18bf]So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/b0fb18bf][/quote0fb18bf]

Absolutely not. I would fiercly oppose any such action up to the point of where it would require any significant action on my part.

However, someone recently pointed out that there comes a time when we just need to burn shit in protest. So, I guess I am now inclined to follow Fonzie's school of thought on protesting [u0fb18bf][i0fb18bf]perceived[/i0fb18bf][/u0fb18bf] egregious outcomes and join the witch hunt.

Dumbass.

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[quote74c5b98="Doug5984"]I don't think you should be penalized- but at the same time you could basically have him the rest of his career with no risk for pretty cheap... I don't think we'd come up with something fair from all sides. And from my stand point I'd like to see him at least get a new offer with the tag, but that is essentially up to you.

I'm assuming you're talking about the [player]Butch Fulton[/player] deal- he did resign for a fair amount after the franchise tag so it became a moot point...
[code74c5b98]
2010 Texas Signed as an unrestricted free agent from Tulsa, $6 mil., 1 yr.
2010 Long Beach Turned down a contract offer, $25 mil., 5 yrs.
2010 Tulsa Turned down a contract offer, $34 mil., 5 yrs.
2010 San Antonio Turned down a contract offer, $43.62 mil., 5 yrs.
2011 Texas Designated franchise player
2011 Texas Signed a renegotiated contract, $17.09 mil., 5 yrs.[/code74c5b98]

I guess it is up to you if you franchise and resign or continually franchise him- i don't know how the new hold out logic works with doing this.[/quote74c5b98]

If by fair, you mean he signed a contract that was less than 1/2 of the largest contract he was offered in free agency the season before, then I guess it's fair.

_________________

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2006, 2009-10, 2019, 2023-24, 2027, 2031-32, 2034-35, 2040, 2044, 2046-47, 2051-53, 2055-56, 2058-62
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[quotef06452d="Raven Hawk"]
If by fair, you mean he signed a contract that was less than 1/2 of the largest contract he was offered in free agency the season before, then I guess it's fair.

[/quotef06452d]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I mean, the deal he ultimately signed probably paid less than if he was franchised every year.

He was going into his 8th season (I think?) with significantly declining skills when he signed that last deal. I didn't mean it was fair for what he could have gotten the season before, but at the time it was a fair deal for his value... He was never a highly rater RB, could just carry it 400 times for 1500+ yards.

_________________


Home of Marvin "Muddy Waters" Raffo

[quotea165405="Fonzie"][quotea165405="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quotea165405]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quotea165405]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.

[quotec6162b0="General Mike"][quotec6162b0="Fonzie"][quotec6162b0="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quotec6162b0]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quotec6162b0]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.[/quotec6162b0]

I don't follow this.

_________________

Ring of Fire Division Champions - 2009, 2011-2026, 2028-33
Western Conference Champions - 2011-2013, 2016, 2017, 2019-2022, 2024, 2025, 2028, 2033
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[quotefc47973="Fonzie"][quotefc47973="General Mike"][quotefc47973="Fonzie"][quotefc47973="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quotefc47973]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quotefc47973]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.[/quotefc47973]

I don't follow this.[/quotefc47973]

You should get to keep the player for the 1 year, but you shouldn't be allowed to franchise him.

These one year fucking contracts with minimum salary are fucking bullshit and I'm fucking sick of it.

I hate the one year contracts as well - but Fonzie should be able to do whatever he wants with his player. We have no rules against one year contracts or restrictions on franchise tags despite this same discussion having occured previously with a high profile player.

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Hartford Attack

[quotecd86ce7="General Mike"][quotecd86ce7="Fonzie"][quotecd86ce7="General Mike"][quotecd86ce7="Fonzie"][quotecd86ce7="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quotecd86ce7]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quotecd86ce7]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.[/quotecd86ce7]

I don't follow this.[/quotecd86ce7]

You should get to keep the player for the 1 year, but you shouldn't be allowed to franchise him.

These one year fucking contracts with minimum salary are fucking bullshit and I'm fucking sick of it.[/quotecd86ce7]

Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on your perspective) there has already been a precedent set (see Butch Fulton), so unless a rule is voted in and implemented there's not a lot that can be done to affect the events that have occurred.

I don't like the 1 year deals but they are not illegal at present, so the only options are to live with them or make them illegal.

_________________
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[quote62f2728="General Mike"][quote62f2728="Fonzie"][quote62f2728="General Mike"][quote62f2728="Fonzie"][quote62f2728="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quote62f2728]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quote62f2728]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.[/quote62f2728]

I don't follow this.[/quote62f2728]

You should get to keep the player for the 1 year, but you shouldn't be allowed to franchise him.

These one year fucking contracts with minimum salary are fucking bullshit and I'm fucking sick of it.[/quote62f2728]

Direct your profanity to Jim Gindin, please. I'm simply playing his game within the confines of our league constitution.

Unless or until there is a rule about FA contracts I see no justification for punishments, which to me includes the elimination of franchise tag availability. Punishments and restrictions should be given to those who have done something demonstrably wrong. What, precisely, have I done wrong in signing this player, GM? What rules have I broken? What of our league's precedent for allowing this to happen without consequence? If we've allowed this before, then why not allow it now?

Remember, as I stated before I'm no fan of 1-year contracts. I initially offered Barlow a 2-year deal, but realized that there was another owner offering a 1-year deal to him. I decided that to get Barlow I'd need to compete with that owner, so I did. Was that wrong?

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[quote6fb6238="Fonzie"][quote6fb6238="General Mike"][quote6fb6238="Fonzie"][quote6fb6238="General Mike"][quote6fb6238="Fonzie"][quote6fb6238="dberner30"]i would also be inclined to not allow the franchise tag on barlow. this creates an ability to essentially get him for a lot less on a multiyr deal because he will get paid 4 million or so (no game access) next year and even the following year. so now what did he sign. 3 yr 52M or 3 yr 24M. Its a huge problem.....

while im at it i think i will blame this issue for my lack of success in FA since i dont use 1 yr fat bonus offers. [/quote6fb6238]

So you think it would be fair to penalize somebody for doing something that was not only legal, but had been done before in this league with no consequences?[/quote6fb6238]

You shouldn't be penalized, but you shouldn't be rewarded either.[/quote6fb6238]

I don't follow this.[/quote6fb6238]

You should get to keep the player for the 1 year, but you shouldn't be allowed to franchise him.

These one year fucking contracts with minimum salary are fucking bullshit and I'm fucking sick of it.[/quote6fb6238]

Direct your profanity to Jim Gindin, please. I'm simply playing his game within the confines of our league constitution.

Unless or until there is a rule about FA contracts I see no justification for punishments, which to me includes the elimination of franchise tag availability. Punishments and restrictions should be given to those who have done something demonstrably wrong. What, precisely, have I done wrong in signing this player, GM? What rules have I broken? What of our league's precedent for allowing this to happen without consequence? If we've allowed this before, then why not allow it now?

Remember, as I stated before I'm no fan of 1-year contracts. I initially offered Barlow a 2-year deal, but realized that there was another owner offering a 1-year deal to him. I decided that to get Barlow I'd need to compete with that owner, so I did. [b6fb6238]Was that wrong[/b6fb6238]?[/quote6fb6238]

Yes, because he is not in Vegas.

_________________
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Any rule that is decided should be effective with the next occurrence, not Fonzie's safety. It's really the only fair way to handle it. Tuscon should be allowed to do whatever is in the best interests of the club. As has been said, no rules were broken here.

_________________

I gotta say, that this is exactly why I didn't offer a 1 year contract to Barlow (or any for that matter). I knew that there would be a backlash against it and I just didn't feel like dealing with it.

This 800lb gorilla has been in the room for a long time and nobody got off their asses to put together a vote on this previously. In fact, I didn't see an outcry in the Stage 2 thread when there was a 1-year contract already offered to the player. Where was the outcry last stage when we could have avoided this? It was silent. Truth is that we have accepted this kind of behavior(albeit grudingly) and we have not punished it in the past. Therefore, how the hell can we make an argument to punish Fonzie, now? Ex Post Facto, anyone?

_________________

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Hall of Fame
Joshua Mask, Douglas Hartman, Carl Bradford, Leland Wellins, Wally Wooden (#80), Brantley Gilmore (#9), Mo Kirwan, Josh Stanton, Efrain Tate

then i say we never change the rule...lets just have these 1 yr BS deals followed by franchise tags...two ways to handle the 1 yr deals...either NO franchise tags or require a franchise tag and an exactly as the player requests offer nxt season...if the player is disgruntled and wont accept the offer (I have one in another league I franchised and now he wont even negotiate when I try to offer him his asking) or a higher offer then at the end of FA he must be cut...

it isnt right and just because others are exploiting doesnt make it right...so here is the question...are we still allowing this BS because I guess every team should get one now before we change the rules...

majority rules i guess...i dont like applying rules retroactively but if this 1 yr bonus crap is a fairly known issue then its caveat emptor and you get what happens to you because you did it knowing it was slimy.

_________________

In case folks have missed it, I bumped the original thread featuring the discussion of [player]Butch Fulton[/player]'s contract here: http://thecfl.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2360.

Two things are worth pointing out from that thread: 1) we knew back then pretty much everything there was to know about this "feature" of the game, and; 2) we had a (mostly) civilized discussion about it and essentially decided to shrug it off.

Why there's such outrage now is truly baffling to me.

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[quotec6da059="Raven Hawk"]I gotta say, that this is exactly why I didn't offer a 1 year contract to Barlow (or any for that matter). I knew that there would be a backlash against it and I just didn't feel like dealing with it.

This 800lb gorilla has been in the room for a long time and nobody got off their asses to put together a vote on this previously. In fact, I didn't see an outcry in the Stage 2 thread when there was a 1-year contract already offered to the player. Where was the outcry last stage when we could have avoided this? It was silent. Truth is that we have accepted this kind of behavior(albeit grudingly) and we have not punished it in the past. Therefore, how the hell can we make an argument to punish Fonzie, now? Ex Post Facto, anyone?


[/quotec6da059]

RH makes an excellent point. If this practice was so abominable, why weren't people kicking and screaming during the last stage when the other 1 year, $12 million deal was on the table? It was there for everyone to see. Why wait to express this outrage?

_________________

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nothing personal directed at you...i would apply the rule to all 1 yr contract cases...the big picture is they hurt the leagues competitive balance...either its a firm stance now or just allow them to go on forever and we all start using them....

what bothers me is that i have had a lot of cap the last few years and made substantial offers on FA talent only to never succeed...i thought it was the crappy nature of CHI but didnt look closely at the winning bid...so the message here is I have a crapload of cap space and could use it properly and land a guy wtih multi yr deals or i could just go after a series of 1 yr mercenaries that are highly bonused because i have the cap space...only a moron FA takes the bonus on a 1 yr deal that is less than he makes on the 3 or 5 yr deal...barlow should never have bit on the 1 yr offer...he just lost a lot of money on the transaction. now change the name to any other 1 yr deal FA and repeat my comment...

_________________

Hey, I got the first overall pick...

[img3c85b3c]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h145/ ... 0gt/ge.gif[/img3c85b3c]

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[quote852d45c="Fonzie"]RH makes an excellent point. If this practice was so abominable, why weren't people kicking and screaming during the last stage when the other 1 year, $12 million deal was on the table? It was there for everyone to see. Why wait to express this outrage?[/quote852d45c]

The contract that was offered in FA stage 2 for 1 year 12 million was made by me as explained earlier. The deal was structured pretty evenly in salary and bonus however. The reason being was to avoid the backlash that I knew would come seeing as I knew what the results were from the "Butch" deal. That being said, Fonzie had no way of knowing how the deal was structured, so I see his point.

I don't think there is a question about changing what happened with Barlow. That was done under the current understanding and should be left alone. I do see these contracts as a major issue in general and we need to address them now that they are becoming common place.

Bottom line is you have never seen these type of contracts offered in the NFL or any other sports league for that matter. They are unrealistic and don't have a place here either. These contracts are an exploit of the game, in my opinion. Let's put together a rule to address the issue that is pretty well thought out and move forward.

[quote5d33ec0="Shooter"]
The contract that was offered in FA stage 2 for 1 year 12 million was made by me as explained earlier. The deal was structured pretty evenly in salary and bonus however. The reason being was to avoid the backlash that I knew would come seeing as I knew what the results were from the "Butch" deal. That being said, Fonzie had no way of knowing how the deal was structured, so I see his point.
[/quote5d33ec0]

Huh? The 1 year $12 million offer was made by me, and it was a little over $10.5 mil in bonus.

I made a similar offer in total value, but pulled it back after FA stage 2 when I realized I didn't have resources to stay in the bidding. I think there were 2 offers out there.

Yay! Another fucking 1 year deal. Fuck this.

I'm pretty baffled by the outrage with no real effort int he past to pass a rule.

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[quote710da32="wademoore"]I'm pretty baffled by the outrage with no real effort in the past to pass a rule.[/quote710da32]
I agree. I don't like the one-year-deals and I think we should do something to stop them but where is all the outrage coming from? This isn't the first time you have seen this happen. Why didn't you do something to end the practice already.

Let's just fix it and move on.

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