[quotedd73a83="timmynausea"][quotedd73a83="Stretch"]The alternative to all of this finagling bullcrap is to just keep the system we have.

It works even though star players never hit free agency.

I vote we keep the current system until the TV contract comes up, then we freeze the salary cap for 5 years.

THAT will fix the problem.[/quotedd73a83]

It's debatable that it will fix it. It'd be better than nothing, of course. Again, the problem with the game is the renegotiation code is too soft. That is what leads to the cap problems. So adjusting the cap would actually have less of an effect on the root problem than addressing renegotiations.[/quotedd73a83]

The problem with us affecting change on renegotiations is that it is digital, on or off. I believe it over-fixes the problem. While renegotiations can be exploited, the choice to eliminate all renegotiations before the final year is extreme. Freezing the cap addresses the same issue to a lesser extreme. As salaries go up and the cap doesn't, renegotiation exploits will only work to a certain extent. The difference is some want an immediate and drastic impact while others want to ease into it. It will be hard to change these opinions by discussion alone, as I think it is a reflection of personality types as much as it is an opinion. The major difference I see is that if a change has a singnificant impact and we say "oops, that was too drastic" there is no going back. If we make a change that may not be drastic enough and we say "well, that didn't do enough" there is no irreversible damage and maybe opinions will be swayed to do more about it.

I think the root cause has been sorted out a long time ago, as mentioned above - the renegotiation code is too soft. So until Jim does something, nothing we do actually fixes the root cause. Only Jim can fix the root cause, so let's stop using that as support for one customer-supplied solution over another. We can merely address the symptoms since we cannot fix the code.

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To TT and others I will ask again - what do you base your assertions on?

You say it's too extreme. You say freezing the cap will fix it.

How do you know? Have you tested it? Have you seen how it works in other leagues? Do you know if freezing the cap impacts what people ask for?

I'm pretty sure the answer to most of this is no, i don't know, i'm just saying what i wish would happen.

The last year reneg has been tested heavily in SP and used in MP leagues with a positive effect.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult.

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[quotec7f4200="wademoore"]To TT and others I will ask again - what do you base your assertions on?

You say it's too extreme. You say freezing the cap will fix it.

How do you know? Have you tested it? Have you seen how it works in other leagues? Do you know if freezing the cap impacts what people ask for?

I'm pretty sure the answer to most of this is no, i don't know, i'm just saying what i wish would happen.

The last year reneg has been tested heavily in SP and used in MP leagues with a positive effect.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult.[/quotec7f4200]

My assertion is simply my opinion. I reneg my players before the last year of their deal. I do so to avoid holdouts by reneging on the second to last year. Does this work? I don't know, all I know is that I have only had 1 or 2 holdouts since running the team. I have also reneg'd guys who aren't nearly the player they were after injury. I happen to like to play the game that way. My perspective (assertion, opinion, etc.) is that a part of the game I consider relevant to my enjoyment of the game is being taken away. It's merely an opinion. I am also trying to explain the stance of those of us who do not play in other leagues or who don't mind trying different stuff out.

You are correct, I do not know the answer to my half-ass guesses, nor do I pick the game apart looking to understand how everything works just to game the game. I think those who do that have ruined this game more than helped it. Of course, I only play this for enjoyment and not to win at the cost of the pleasure I derive from it. Maybe that's why I'll never win it all. Not sure I care either.

It isn't difficult. Hold the vote. Implement the rule. Communicate what it is. When the rule that prevents us from having an opinion or holding a discussion is passed, let me know so I'll stop doing so.

BTW, why don't you spend your efforts getting the rest of the league to vote. That is what's holding this up, not our exercise in free speech. Again, just an opinion.

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[quotea6c2d65="TurfToe"][quotea6c2d65="wademoore"]To TT and others I will ask again - what do you base your assertions on?

You say it's too extreme. You say freezing the cap will fix it.

How do you know? Have you tested it? Have you seen how it works in other leagues? Do you know if freezing the cap impacts what people ask for?

I'm pretty sure the answer to most of this is no, i don't know, i'm just saying what i wish would happen.

The last year reneg has been tested heavily in SP and used in MP leagues with a positive effect.

I'm not sure why this is so difficult.[/quotea6c2d65]

My assertion is simply my opinion. I reneg my players before the last year of their deal. I do so to avoid holdouts by reneging on the second to last year. Does this work? I don't know, all I know is that I have only had 1 or 2 holdouts since running the team. I have also reneg'd guys who aren't nearly the player they were after injury. I happen to like to play the game that way. My perspective (assertion, opinion, etc.) is that a part of the game I consider relevant to my enjoyment of the game is being taken away. It's merely an opinion. I am also trying to explain the stance of those of us who do not play in other leagues or who don't mind trying different stuff out.

You are correct, I do not know the answer to my half-ass guesses, nor do I pick the game apart looking to understand how everything works just to game the game. I think those who do that have ruined this game more than helped it. Of course, I only play this for enjoyment and not to win at the cost of the pleasure I derive from it. Maybe that's why I'll never win it all. Not sure I care either.

It isn't difficult. Hold the vote. Implement the rule. Communicate what it is. When the rule that prevents us from having an opinion or holding a discussion is passed, let me know so I'll stop doing so.

BTW, why don't you spend your efforts getting the rest of the league to vote. That is what's holding this up, not our exercise in free speech. Again, just an opinion.[/quotea6c2d65]

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!
The ones that have ruined the game are the ones that are trying to beat the game! I am in this for fun also, have a great time playing, if someone (a player) asks for a certain contract I will try to jip him out of a few million once, after that he gets what he asked for. What does that get me? Pretty close to the cap since I started this league in the year 2005 (Real year 2004) There are teams (me included) that have had to trade star players because of salary cap problems. Does the no reneg except in final yr also count with traded players? If so this is not very realistic as teams trade final year guys and new teams reneg as a condition. Just play the game, dont try and beat it, that is what all this mess is about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ok, I think we need to step back and take another look at this. Too much room under the salary cap is a symptom of the real problem. The Real problem that I think we can all agree on, is that players that had off years, or were injured, will sign a renegotiated contract that is far below their true worth. To add to this root problem, is that they do not hold out as often as they should later under that renegotiated deal.

We should address the ROOT of the problem. This final year renegotiation is not the answer. Why is it not the answer, you ask?

If you feel that players renegotiating after a injured or bad year for less then their true worth is unfair, then this rule makes it more so. What this rule will do is add unnecessary randomness to the league, and also have people try to find a way to work this rule as well.

Let's say we get this rule, and one team loses a star running back for 7 or so games and will sign a new cheap deal. It just happens to be that player's last year under contract, and we allow it. Then, 3 other teams lose key players and none of them are in their last years of contracts, so they cannot resign. This gives the one team an advantage over not only those 3 teams, but since we are cutting down on the renegotiations, over all other 31 teams.

To beat this rule, what you will see is some teams will try their best to resign guys to only 2 year deals, so that if they get hurt in either year, it will have some effect on what they will resign for when they are allowed to resign.

Now that I have addressed why I feel that the final year renegotiation rule is not the answer, let me propose a few different ideas that are very open to criticism and discussion.

1. Every player with a Future rating of 65 or 70 (open to suggestions) can only sign the exact contract they request. They can resign as often as they want.

2. Same as one, but Future rating is 70 and they can only resign within their last 2 years of their current contract.

3. No player with Future rating over 60 can renegotiate a contract after any season where they played 11 or less games to prevent the way low contract after a injured year. Exception is if it is their last year of contract, they can resign even if they did not play in at least 12
games.

I really like the idea of giving the players what they want and not having to work the contract signing logic to its limit.

I have nothing against Fonzie at all, and he did nothing wrong, but this contract was brought up earlier. Kent Goodwin signed a really cheap contract for the QB with the league's highest career QB rating ever. He signed this deal after starting 16 games the year before, and the year of, all while still having a QB rating of over 100. This was not a result of an injury year, or an off year. I do not think the final year renegotiation rule will stop these contracts, and will only open up the gap from the owners who work the game and those who just play the game. Giving key players the contracts they ask for will level this playing field and will eventually make the salary cap meaningful once again.

There have been a lot of valid points as to how the renegotiation only in the final year may hinder the managing of the salary cap. While it does address, to an extent, part of the issue I feel that the negatives outway the positives here.

As Fastcat pointed out, we do not know if the freeze of the salary cap will work or not. It does not look like other leagues have taken this approach, but at first and second glance this looks like the only true way to resolve the heart of the issue. The other benefit...IT'S AN IN GAME FIX. No outside the game monitoring would be involved. Seeing is that we are really only a season away from that option, it may be in our best interest to wait this one out and see what happens over the course of the next 2-3 seasons and see if there is a swing in the trend. If it does not fix the issue we always have a backup plan with the final year renegotiation rule.

[quote4a6f7d3="Shooter"]There have been a lot of valid points as to how the renegotiation only in the final year may hinder the managing of the salary cap. While it does address, to an extent, part of the issue I feel that the negatives outway the positives here.

As Fastcat pointed out, we do not know if the freeze of the salary cap will work or not. It does not look like other leagues have taken this approach, but at first and second glance this looks like the only true way to resolve the heart of the issue. The other benefit...IT'S AN IN GAME FIX. No outside the game monitoring would be involved. Seeing is that we are really only a season away from that option, it may be in our best interest to wait this one out and see what happens over the course of the next 2-3 seasons and see if there is a swing in the trend. If it does not fix the issue we always have a backup plan with the final year renegotiation rule.[/quote4a6f7d3]

I will ask for the 400th time.

Has anyone actually CHECKED to see if this works? Do we know if salaries continue to go up with a frozen salary cap?

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[quote27b1065="wademoore"]
I will ask for the 400th time.

Has anyone actually CHECKED to see if this works? Do we know if salaries continue to go up with a frozen salary cap?[/quote27b1065]

I have just checked a single season run by setting the salary cap increase range from "0" to "0" and the cap did not increase in the next year.

I continured to run 4 seasons in SP mode and found that even with the AI running the team and the cap frozen, there were several teams that were over the cap with 34 players on their roster, etc.

So at first glance, it appears that with a frozen cap the inflation of salary demands does in fact continue. Now we need to keep in mind that with 32 owners what is offered will vary from the AI, but my guess is that with current salaries hitting the salary cap combined with the inflated salary demands the tough choices will in fact happen over course of natural time...IN GAME.

Wade, I hope this helps. I know it probably is not the best possible test that can be run, but at least it is a glimpse of what could transpire.

[quoted404b44="Shooter"][quoted404b44="wademoore"]
I will ask for the 400th time.

Has anyone actually CHECKED to see if this works? Do we know if salaries continue to go up with a frozen salary cap?[/quoted404b44]

I have just checked a single season run by setting the salary cap increase range from "0" to "0" and the cap did not increase in the next year.

I continured to run 4 seasons in SP mode and found that even with the AI running the team and the cap frozen, there were several teams that were over the cap with 34 players on their roster, etc.

So at first glance, it appears that with a frozen cap the inflation of salary demands does in fact continue. Now we need to keep in mind that with 32 owners what is offered will vary from the AI, but my guess is that with current salaries hitting the salary cap combined with the inflated salary demands the tough choices will in fact happen over course of natural time...IN GAME.

Wade, I hope this helps. I know it probably is not the best possible test that can be run, but at least it is a glimpse of what could transpire.[/quoted404b44]

Thanks for doing that Shooter. Really, it's the only test that we can do given from what I can gather, no other MP league has done this.

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I'm digging back in the memory banks here- and this was from FOF 2004, but I remember someone somewhere figured out that salary demands went up regardless of what the cap increase would be set to. Now I remember this because in the HFL when the league was set up, the cap increase was set to a lower # (FFF, can you verify this for me?), and one owner did not like this because of the strain it would cause on the cap situation (not knowing at the time that it would actually be setting it to where it *should* be)..That owner was the former Fargo owner...his name is slipping my mind at the time... MC, maybe?

Now with all that being said- our current situation is this- roughly half the teams in the league have over 20 million in cap space, if the cap is increasing at 8 million a year (I do not know the exact number off hand)...it will take 2 full season once it is frozen to begin feeling the effect for most teams.
Then we have to bring up the bigger question, once it is frozen where to go from there? How long to keep it frozen, what to set it at once it is frozen and so forth and so on.

I may have missed it, but how many more seasons until the TV contract comes up? If it is at the end of this year, then I could see us saying ok sure- no rule needed, we will suck it up under the current situation and some teams will start feeling the heat, and that will cause a slight increase in FA talent.

If it is after that, then I still stand by we need something, and I'm on wade's side here that the final year works.

To those that say- you can't renegotiate down to a reasonable level- I'm say that is exactly what we want- a way to increase teams cap costs... We have no way to increase contracts to what they should be, so we should at least keep high contracts up. Its the same for every team, across the board...
My exception to the rules would be- allow traded players a small window to get the guys value down, that will increase trades a good bit- which I believe is good for the league.

We only have to deal with that for a few seasons until the contracts catch up with the cap- then we would have no need for the rule. We can implement it as- this rule is in effect until X day, at that time we will hold a vote to see if it stays in effect longer.



The root of the problem is- players are not asking for enough money. Simple as that. Look at the contracts around the league and you will see that. Besides the best of the best, contracts are wayyy to low.
I bring up Kent Goodwin again, and nothing against Fonzie- the contract is completely legit- but no way should a QB of his caliber ever accept a deal that is 11 mil a year...he should be double that, imo.

To sum it up- the final year does not address the problem, it is just a band-aid, but it gives us something until the real fix can take place.

Now, will anyone take the time to read the ramblings

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[quote064b5e7="Doug5984"]
To sum it up- the final year does not address the problem, it is just a band-aid, but it gives us something until the real fix can take place.[/quote064b5e7]

Yes, a band-aid, and I believe this league deserves better then that.

[quote064b5e7="Doug5984"]Now, will anyone take the time to read the ramblings [/quote064b5e7]

I did, did you read mine?

[quotec62fb40="thater"][quotec62fb40="Doug5984"]
To sum it up- the final year does not address the problem, it is just a band-aid, but it gives us something until the real fix can take place.[/quotec62fb40]

Yes, a band-aid, and I believe this league deserves better then that.

[quotec62fb40="Doug5984"]Now, will anyone take the time to read the ramblings [/quotec62fb40]

I did, did you read mine? [/quotec62fb40]

I did, and while I think that is a more effective solution it still doesn't address the issue of players not asking for enough money. Restricting it to the exact contract they request is hard (impossible?) to enforce, and really limits a GMs flexibility in signing players. And to me, it's a lot to remember, especially for those owners who are in multiple leagues and have different rules in all of them.

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I read them all and found many good points in each of them (yes, even your's Wade).

I have no problem using my cap productively and wish everyone else would. Of course, I had to modify my strategy to do it because I refuse to give a garbage player a stud's contract. However, that's the beauty of it, one GM's garbage is another GM's treasure based on need and opinion of what's good. I guess I shouldn't complain though because if everyone was agressive with the current situation, no one would be willing to trade me their high draft picks. Maybe it's my fault everyone has free cap space because I keep taking their top-10 picks.

I just wish we could decide on something and get on with the implementation so I know what to do at the end of this year and how to plan for my team next year and the near future.

Let's keep chipping away at our options until we have 2-3 options to get a final vote on...and hopefully before the post-season.

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I have a problem with any contract a player signs with no increase from year to year. I have never seen a player ask for such a contract, thus this tells me the owners have somehow found out how to beat the game instead of playing it. I am not sure any rule will stop this from happening, so lets just ride out the current TV contract and then freeze it for 5 seasons and see what happens, then if needed set the increase to 1 wait the contract out and see what happens.

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[quote87eeb42="Fastcat"]I have a problem with any contract a player signs with no increase from year to year. I have never seen a player ask for such a contract, thus this tells me the owners have somehow found out how to beat the game instead of playing it. I am not sure any rule will stop this from happening, so lets just ride out the current TV contract and then freeze it for 5 seasons and see what happens, then if needed set the increase to 1 wait the contract out and see what happens.[/quote87eeb42]

I think we could do some more testing and get a gauge as to how fast salary demands go up. As owners of a team, this is something real NFL owners face as the TV contracts come up, so it could be a interesting aspect to the MP universe. I would say let's test out how the demands go up and freeze the TV contract for 2 or 3 years. If that is possible, we can revisit it and see if we want to continue the freeze or add cap space accordingly. Freezing it for too long may have an adverse effect in itself.

As for big name guys and salary demands, I can tell you I have 2 key players coming up for contract now. [player]Roy Jones[/player] is seeking a 5 year deal worth $77,000,000 in his last year. I have [player]Bernie Copley[/player] seeking a 5 year deal worth over $87,000,000 with multiple years left on his current deal.

Offering a contract that has the same salary amount from year to year is not common in the NFL, because it really is not in the best interest of NFL teams. They don't like to pay money up front. The reason it works here is because we have the cap space to pull off a front loaded contract. Freezing the cap should eventually resolve this for the most part.

If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.

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[quoted04e185="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quoted04e185]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?

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[quotea5bd042="Fastcat"][quotea5bd042="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quotea5bd042]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quotea5bd042]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

If we do decide to go that route- I still think it should be with another system until we get there- and someone with some free time should do some testing to figure out the % that contracts rise each each. Once we have that info, we can make a best guess at how long the tv contract will last- and need be we can figure out a formalua to come up with an appropriate cap increase from year to year to give us the best long term affects.

I agree with someone who posted above, we need to just keep chipping away at the votes until we have a something in place by the offseason.

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[quote5be9da3="Doug5984"][quote5be9da3="Fastcat"][quote5be9da3="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quote5be9da3]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quote5be9da3]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

[/quote5be9da3]

Is this not what we want? Teams using their cap space, while also increasing the talent in FA?

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[quote80e8abd="Fastcat"][quote80e8abd="Doug5984"][quote80e8abd="Fastcat"][quote80e8abd="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quote80e8abd]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quote80e8abd]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

[/quote80e8abd]

Is this not what we want? Teams using their cap space, while also increasing the talent in FA?[/quote80e8abd]

LOL

Hello.

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[quote27ca5df="Fastcat"][quote27ca5df="Doug5984"][quote27ca5df="Fastcat"][quote27ca5df="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quote27ca5df]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quote27ca5df]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

[/quote27ca5df]

Is this not what we want? Teams using their cap space, while also increasing the talent in FA?[/quote27ca5df]

What I meant was- after 2 years it will be where we want it, a good balance of being able to keep some players, while letting some hit the market- but if we're stuck with 4 more years (6 total) of a cap freeze it'll swing to far in the opposite direction where you won't be able to resign any guys until they hit the open market.

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[quoteb3df96e="Doug5984"][quoteb3df96e="Fastcat"][quoteb3df96e="Doug5984"][quoteb3df96e="Fastcat"][quoteb3df96e="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quoteb3df96e]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quoteb3df96e]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

[/quoteb3df96e]

Is this not what we want? Teams using their cap space, while also increasing the talent in FA?[/quoteb3df96e]

What I meant was- after 2 years it will be where we want it, a good balance of being able to keep some players, while letting some hit the market- but if we're stuck with 4 more years (6 total) of a cap freeze it'll swing to far in the opposite direction where you won't be able to resign any guys until they hit the open market.[/quoteb3df96e]

Now that would be some kind of challenge. Like I said I am always against the cap with a few million here and there, I do not have that stout of a team. Freeze it up and lets see people get really creative

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Over in the DFL, about 7 seasons back there was a lot of teams over the cap and simply redoing deals and pushing the hit out year after year. Needless to say, it nearly ruined the league. So the decision was made to make a hard cap. Here's the rule:

[i9e4e5db]B. Beginning with the 2009 season, we will be implementing a hard salary cap. This means that all teams must be under the salary cap by final stage of the pre-draft FA period. Any teams that are not under the salary cap by that stage will have players released by the Commissioner when that stage is complete. The Commissioner will attempt to do this with the least amount of players dropped in order to get under the cap. Also, the Commissioner will post what steps will be taking in the forums 1-2 stages before the end of the FA period so that it will not be a surprise. You will have fair warning.[/i9e4e5db]

There has been several times where the Commish has had to release players for teams. It wasn't an easy switch over as teams had to pay close attention to their $$ situation. But now players salary demands have come down for the most part and there are times when teams have to let some key players go via FA or trade to stay under the cap. This move saved the league and it's been really thriving.

This is the only example close to the cap freeze that I can think of. Making the cap meaningful and adding a vital element to the game is not easy, but then who wants easy? Other than TT's wife of course.

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[quote0f465cb="Doug5984"][quote0f465cb="Fastcat"][quote0f465cb="Doug5984"][quote0f465cb="Fastcat"][quote0f465cb="TLK"]If we go with the cap freeze, we're stuck with it from 2019 for the duration of the next television contract. If a bunch of teams get screwed by this... there will be no way to fix it.[/quote0f465cb]

How will teams get screwed by a cap freeze?[/quote0f465cb]

I'm not sure how long the Television contracts last- lets say it's 6 years (pulling that out my ass- nothing to base it on). After 2 years salary demands = cap. So you have 4 more years of salary demands increasing while the cap remains the same. You'd have a lot of teams right on the cap, and a lot of free agents accepting less money because teams can't pay them.

[/quote0f465cb]

Is this not what we want? Teams using their cap space, while also increasing the talent in FA?[/quote0f465cb]

What I meant was- after 2 years it will be where we want it, a good balance of being able to keep some players, while letting some hit the market- but if we're stuck with 4 more years (6 total) of a cap freeze it'll swing to far in the opposite direction where [b0f465cb]you won't be able to resign any guys until they hit the open market[/b0f465cb].[/quote0f465cb]

But at least a GM would have more options that might include releasing some guys and reneging others. There would be options and choices. Without being able to reneg, there is one less tool a GM has to work with. Being up against a cap and having multiple options available may just be a pipe dream but it is certainly what we are shooting for in the ideal situation.

Can we add reverting back to our last season of FOF 2004 as an option in the vote? It seemed to work so much better, even though it might not have been cuz I really don't remember anymore.

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ROF Division Champions: 2039 - 2043, 2045, 2047, 2054, 2056 - 2060, 2063, 2066-2067, 2070-2072
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